One signal will put an end to all religions

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Dr Zaius
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Re: One signal will put an end to all religions

Post by Dr Zaius » October 3, 2015, 6:14 pm

Manbush wrote:
Dr Zaius wrote:
Manbush wrote:
Dr Zaius wrote:Just to be clear, I never said anything about creationists. I was talking about people who follow a religion in general. Creationists are a sub-section of religious people. That is a separate discussion to what I was talking about. Asserting that the earth is only a few thousand years old despite all evidence to the contrary is absurd.
How many religions aren't creationist based, even when they do believe in evolution or the earth is older than 6000years?

You being a man of science I'm surprised you have no problem with people ignoring evidence for faith, indoctrinating children to do the same, trying to interfere with medicine etc.

To be fair there are some religious people I have no problem with, as long as they don't try to impose their beliefs on others worship any being you like, but unfortunately they are in the crossfire because religion as a whole is trying to impose itself. They believe they have a privilege to be the only thing immune to criticism, **** even the pope tried to justify the Charie Hebdo shooting. Criticise any other kind of belief that has no evidence is fine but criticise religion which has no evidence and you're a bigot and intolerant.
You see, you sound like a biggot. You're basically pigeon holeing all religious people into a stereotype. The majority of religious people in this country go about their daily life, they practice their faith and they don't bother anyone. They're no more ramming principles down throats, picketing and frothing at the mouth than the average Muslim is trying to blow **** up. Yes I have a problem with people like that, but some people are jerks. You on the other hand are behaving like a typical bigoted atheist - also a jerk.
Um did you miss the part where I said I have no problems with those religious types? When a belief (with no evidence) is the basis and is used to justify so much wrong in the world what's wrong with criticising that belief?
Nothing, but my issue is with their actions not their beliefs. The issue is that the majority of religious types have nothing to do with that but are still the constant subjects of ridicule from yourself, GEM, SB and other atheist bigots.
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Re: One signal will put an end to all religions

Post by Manbush » October 3, 2015, 6:18 pm

Dr Zaius wrote:Yes I have a problem with people like that, but some people are jerks.
So we're on a similar page but you're preferring to have a problem with the actual individuals when it's the institutions themselves pushing those. We both believe there are good and bad people in all religions, I'll never say otherwise.
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Re: One signal will put an end to all religions

Post by Notaroboticfish » October 3, 2015, 6:18 pm

This argument seems incredibly pointless.

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Re: One signal will put an end to all religions

Post by Dr Zaius » October 3, 2015, 6:21 pm

Hello123 wrote:This argument seems incredibly pointless.
Spot on so far
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Re: One signal will put an end to all religions

Post by Manbush » October 3, 2015, 6:24 pm

Dr Zaius wrote: Nothing, but my issue is with their actions not their beliefs. The issue is that the majority of religious types have nothing to do with that but are still the constant subjects of ridicule from yourself, GEM, SB and other atheist bigots.
Where do you think their actions come from?

I agree the majority of religious types have nothing to do with it and are great people hence why I TRY to criticise the beliefs (which have everything to do with it) and the institutions themselves rather than the people. The shared beliefs are the cause of their actions so sometimes by criticising the beliefs people interpret that as criticising the people themselves which is not my intent.
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Re: One signal will put an end to all religions

Post by Notaroboticfish » October 3, 2015, 6:28 pm

Whenever I talk to someone religious I try to avoid the topic of religion entirely.
I know I'll end up insulting them if we discuss it.

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Re: One signal will put an end to all religions

Post by Manbush » October 3, 2015, 6:33 pm

Dr Zaius wrote:
Hello123 wrote:This argument seems incredibly pointless.
Spot on so far
Haha I tried to stay out of it, when I asked Dubby his view on what happened to non believers I replied respectfully and was appreciative of him putting his views on the line rather than going off on a tangent on other issues, respectfully queried Hammock on gay marriage but I've been dragged back in by other tangents as its a topic I'm passionate about.
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Re: One signal will put an end to all religions

Post by Dr Zaius » October 3, 2015, 6:40 pm

Manbush wrote:
Dr Zaius wrote: Nothing, but my issue is with their actions not their beliefs. The issue is that the majority of religious types have nothing to do with that but are still the constant subjects of ridicule from yourself, GEM, SB and other atheist bigots.
Where do you think their actions come from?
The person. The Linte Cafe gunman had a long history of violence. Time will tell but this boy in Parramatta was probably pretty disturbed. A family of refuges from a violent place, there's a good chance there are mental health issues in play. Religion can be a convenient excuse absolutely, but it still takes a jerk to do these things.
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Re: One signal will put an end to all religions

Post by Manbush » October 3, 2015, 6:43 pm

Dr Zaius wrote:
Manbush wrote:
Dr Zaius wrote: Nothing, but my issue is with their actions not their beliefs. The issue is that the majority of religious types have nothing to do with that but are still the constant subjects of ridicule from yourself, GEM, SB and other atheist bigots.
Where do you think their actions come from?
The person. The Linte Cafe gunman had a long history of violence. Time will tell but this boy in Parramatta was probably pretty disturbed. A family of refuges from a violent place, there's a good chance there are mental health issues in play. Religion can be a convenient excuse absolutely, but it still takes a jerk to do these things.
Marriage equality, pro choice, euthanasia, stem cells, witches being burned in Africa, do I need to go on?
"My own opinion is enough for me and I claim the right to have it defended against any consensus, any majority, anywhere, any place, any time, and anyone who disagrees with this can pick a number, get in line and kiss my ass" Christopher Hitchens

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Re: One signal will put an end to all religions

Post by Dr Zaius » October 3, 2015, 6:53 pm

Manbush wrote:
Dr Zaius wrote:
Manbush wrote:
Dr Zaius wrote: Nothing, but my issue is with their actions not their beliefs. The issue is that the majority of religious types have nothing to do with that but are still the constant subjects of ridicule from yourself, GEM, SB and other atheist bigots.
Where do you think their actions come from?
The person. The Linte Cafe gunman had a long history of violence. Time will tell but this boy in Parramatta was probably pretty disturbed. A family of refuges from a violent place, there's a good chance there are mental health issues in play. Religion can be a convenient excuse absolutely, but it still takes a jerk to do these things.
Marriage equality, pro choice, euthanasia, stem cells, witches being burned in Africa, do I need to go on?
There are plenty that oppose those on ethical, non religious grounds. There is a complex ethical discussion about euthanasia for example. As for burning witches at the stake, I know nothing about it but much like shooting people in a cafe I imagine it takes a special type of crazy.
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Re: One signal will put an end to all religions

Post by Notaroboticfish » October 3, 2015, 6:57 pm

Manbush wrote:
Dr Zaius wrote:
Manbush wrote:
Dr Zaius wrote: Nothing, but my issue is with their actions not their beliefs. The issue is that the majority of religious types have nothing to do with that but are still the constant subjects of ridicule from yourself, GEM, SB and other atheist bigots.
Where do you think their actions come from?
The person. The Linte Cafe gunman had a long history of violence. Time will tell but this boy in Parramatta was probably pretty disturbed. A family of refuges from a violent place, there's a good chance there are mental health issues in play. Religion can be a convenient excuse absolutely, but it still takes a jerk to do these things.
Marriage equality, pro choice, euthanasia, stem cells, witches being burned in Africa, do I need to go on?
I always thought euthanasia was about BUT WHAT IF THEY SURVIVE? That's at least how I've always thought it was.

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Re: One signal will put an end to all religions

Post by Shadow Boxer » October 3, 2015, 7:23 pm

Dr Zaius wrote:
Manbush wrote:
Dr Zaius wrote:
Manbush wrote:
Dr Zaius wrote: Nothing, but my issue is with their actions not their beliefs. The issue is that the majority of religious types have nothing to do with that but are still the constant subjects of ridicule from yourself, GEM, SB and other atheist bigots.
Where do you think their actions come from?
The person. The Linte Cafe gunman had a long history of violence. Time will tell but this boy in Parramatta was probably pretty disturbed. A family of refuges from a violent place, there's a good chance there are mental health issues in play. Religion can be a convenient excuse absolutely, but it still takes a jerk to do these things.
Marriage equality, pro choice, euthanasia, stem cells, witches being burned in Africa, do I need to go on?
There are plenty that oppose those on ethical, non religious grounds. There is a complex ethical discussion about euthanasia for example. As for burning witches at the stake, I know nothing about it but much like shooting people in a cafe I imagine it takes a special type of crazy.
Yeh, generally speaking what is required for good people, or children, to execute evil is religion.

It's a good thing thing that Lindt cafe thing was a one off though, otherwise we would have seen a raft of people arrested for planning terrorist acts or a young man in Melbourne stabbing a police officer to death or a 15 year old boy shooting an innocent family man in the back of the head.

**** your stupid religion, whatever it's flavour.
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Re: One signal will put an end to all religions

Post by Manbush » October 3, 2015, 7:32 pm

Dr Zaius wrote:
Manbush wrote:
Dr Zaius wrote:
Manbush wrote:
Dr Zaius wrote: Nothing, but my issue is with their actions not their beliefs. The issue is that the majority of religious types have nothing to do with that but are still the constant subjects of ridicule from yourself, GEM, SB and other atheist bigots.
Where do you think their actions come from?
The person. The Linte Cafe gunman had a long history of violence. Time will tell but this boy in Parramatta was probably pretty disturbed. A family of refuges from a violent place, there's a good chance there are mental health issues in play. Religion can be a convenient excuse absolutely, but it still takes a jerk to do these things.
Marriage equality, pro choice, euthanasia, stem cells, witches being burned in Africa, do I need to go on?
There are plenty that oppose those on ethical, non religious grounds. There is a complex ethical discussion about euthanasia for example. As for burning witches at the stake, I know nothing about it but much like shooting people in a cafe I imagine it takes a special type of crazy.
Most opponents are on a religious basis.

Yes crazy because they are following gods word to kill witches.

Exodus 22:18 “You shall not permit a sorceress to live.
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Re: One signal will put an end to all religions

Post by Manbush » October 3, 2015, 7:35 pm

I'll leave it with this as Geta Christina says it better than I can (long winded though).

Yes, Even Moderate Religion Still Does Harm

Now, many believers will argue that the harm done by religion isn't religion's fault. Many will point out all the wars, bigotry, fraud, oppression, quashing of science and medicine, and terrorizing of children done for reasons other than religion. And many will argue that, even when this stuff is done in the name of religion, it isn't really inspired by religion at all. It's inspired by greed, fear, selfishness, the hunger for power, the desire for control... all the things that lead people to do evil.

And they'll have a point. I'm not saying that religion is the root of all evil. I'm not arguing that a world without religion would be a blissful Utopia where everyone holds hands and chocolate flows in the streets. (And then we all die, because the chocolate is drowning us and we can't swim because we're holding hands.) I don't know of any atheist who'd argue that. I know that the impulses driving evil are deeply rooted in human nature, and religion is far from the only thing to inspire it.

I'm saying that religion provides a uniquely stubborn justification for evil. I'm saying that religion is uniquely armored against criticism, questioning, and self-correction... and that this armor protects it against the reality checks that act, to a limited degree and in the long run, to keep evil in check. I'm saying that religion takes the human impulses to evil, and cuts the brake line, and sends them careening down a hill and into the center of town.

Yes -- even moderate religion. Not to nearly the same degree as extreme religion, of course. If all religion were moderate, ecumenical, separate from government, supportive of science, and accepting of non-belief... well, atheists would still disagree with it, but most of us wouldn't much care.

But moderate religion still does harm. It still encourages people to believe in invisible beings, inaudible voices, intangible entities, undetectable forces, and events and judgments that happen after we die. And therefore, it still disables reality checks... making people more vulnerable to oppression, fraud, and abuse.

What's more, moderate religion is in the minority. The oppressive, intolerant, reality-denying forms of religion are far more common, and far better at perpetuating themselves. And moderate religion gives these ugly forms credibility. It gives credibility to the idea that believing in things there's no reason to believe is valid, and actually virtuous. It gives credibility to the idea that invisible worlds are real, more real and important than the visible one. It gives credibility to the idea that our seriously biased personal intuition is more trustworthy than logic or verifiable evidence. It gives credibility to the idea that religious beliefs, alone among all other ideas, should be beyond criticism; that the very act of questioning religion is inherently intolerant. (It also, I've found, has a distinct tendency to get hostile and decidedly un-moderate towards non-believers when questioned even a little.)

Read more http://www.alternet.org/story/143912/th ... is_harmful
Last edited by Manbush on October 3, 2015, 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: One signal will put an end to all religions

Post by Dr Zaius » October 3, 2015, 7:36 pm

Shadow Boxer wrote:Yeh, generally speaking what is required for good people, or children, to execute evil is religion.
That is one of the most ridiculous statements I've seen on this forum.
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Re: One signal will put an end to all religions

Post by Shadow Boxer » October 3, 2015, 7:38 pm

Do children shoot people in the back of the head for any other reason ?
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Re: One signal will put an end to all religions

Post by Dr Zaius » October 3, 2015, 7:38 pm

Manbush wrote:Most opponents are on a religious basis.
Maybe the most vocal, or the ones that get the most airplay. Enlighten yourself. Turn to your beloved google and find yourself an essay debating the ethics of euthanasia.
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Re: One signal will put an end to all religions

Post by Shadow Boxer » October 3, 2015, 7:49 pm

Sorry, if people are going to argue I should really attribute the quote

https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes ... n_Weinberg
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Re: One signal will put an end to all religions

Post by Dr Zaius » October 3, 2015, 7:49 pm

Shadow Boxer wrote:Do children shoot people in the back of the head for any other reason ?
I think a quick flick through the various gun massacres in the US will answer your question. Honestly, one of the most idiotic statements that I've ever read.
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Re: One signal will put an end to all religions

Post by Notaroboticfish » October 3, 2015, 7:51 pm

Shadow Boxer wrote:Do children shoot people in the back of the head for any other reason ?
I think religion is dumb af, but if I was gonna shoot someone for no reason I would say something like "God told me to" because it's the one that would allow you the least amount of hatred.

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Re: One signal will put an end to all religions

Post by Manbush » October 3, 2015, 7:57 pm

Hello123 wrote:
Shadow Boxer wrote:Do children shoot people in the back of the head for any other reason ?
I think religion is dumb af, but if I was gonna shoot someone for no reason I would say something like "God told me to" because it's the one that would allow you the least amount of hatred.
Yeah considering all Abrahamic religions are based on a man being told by god to kill his son it should be a get out of jail free card for religious people :lol:
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Re: One signal will put an end to all religions

Post by Shadow Boxer » October 3, 2015, 8:00 pm

Dr Zaius wrote:
Shadow Boxer wrote:Do children shoot people in the back of the head for any other reason ?
I think a quick flick through the various gun massacres in the US will answer your question. Honestly, one of the most idiotic statements that I've ever read.
your missing the point, as did the young man yesterday who made 13 people stand up and state their religion before execution them
With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.
Steven Weinberg
How anyone would defend what is going on in the world at the moment is beyond me.
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Re: One signal will put an end to all religions

Post by Dr Zaius » October 3, 2015, 8:15 pm

Shadow Boxer wrote:
Dr Zaius wrote:
Shadow Boxer wrote:Do children shoot people in the back of the head for any other reason ?
I think a quick flick through the various gun massacres in the US will answer your question. Honestly, one of the most idiotic statements that I've ever read.
your missing the point, as did the young man yesterday who made 13 people stand up and state their religion before execution them.
No I'm not. I was responding to your post, not Steven Weinberg's quote. It was utterly ridiculous and to be honest highlights what I've been saying about biggots. And Weinberg is wrong, in the right circumstances good people are more than capable of committing evil without hiding behind religion.
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Re: One signal will put an end to all religions

Post by Shadow Boxer » October 3, 2015, 8:29 pm

Dr Zaius wrote:
Shadow Boxer wrote:
Dr Zaius wrote:
Shadow Boxer wrote:Do children shoot people in the back of the head for any other reason ?
I think a quick flick through the various gun massacres in the US will answer your question. Honestly, one of the most idiotic statements that I've ever read.
your missing the point, as did the young man yesterday who made 13 people stand up and state their religion before execution them.
No I'm not. I was responding to your post, not Steven Weinberg's quote. It was utterly ridiculous and to be honest highlights what I've been saying about biggots. And Weinberg is wrong, in the right circumstances good people are more than capable of committing evil without hiding behind religion.
Yeh fair point, religion is generally the excuse though, and as mb said there is a difference between hating a person because of what they believe and hating what they believe.

Throwing out words like racist and bigot with all their emotive power generally creates enough straw man to confuse the issue and I expect that distinction will be lost on the internet.
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Re: One signal will put an end to all religions

Post by Dr Zaius » October 3, 2015, 8:32 pm

I agree with your first statement, but I'd argue that there is plenty of hating the person in these threads.
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Re: One signal will put an end to all religions

Post by Shadow Boxer » October 3, 2015, 8:44 pm

Not by me, Just had a cracking early spring morning on the golf course before a few beers watching the Hawks.

I'm to old to hate anyone and everyone has their own own battles to fight and crosses to bear. (Oops)

At the end of the day were all just schmucks grinding it out.
If there is no point in the universe that we discover by the methods of science, there is a point that we can give the universe by the way we live, by loving each other, by discovering things about nature, by creating works of art. And that—in a way, although we are not the stars in a cosmic drama, if the only drama we're starring in is one that we are making up as we go along, it is not entirely ignoble that faced with this unloving, impersonal universe we make a little island of warmth and love and science and art for ourselves. That's not an entirely despicable role for us to play.
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Re: One signal will put an end to all religions

Post by Manbush » October 3, 2015, 9:10 pm

Dr Zaius wrote:I agree with your first statement, but I'd argue that there is plenty of hating the person in these threads.
So when you criticise people's beliefs and opinions you're hating the person not just the belief? I don't believe so as I'm aware they don't always go together.

As I said I like Dubby he's a good bloke, one of my best mates is very religious, his dad's a pastor of a strange Christian denomination that until about 5years ago followed the Old Testament (which is absolutely terrible) and begun teaching the New (which while still bad isn't to the Olds standards), I gather because I criticise Christianity I hate him also?

My dads a racist I criticise him for that but I still love the prick.

The religious and their apologists need to get it into their skulls that you can hate a religious belief without hating the person just as you can hate any other opinion without necessarily hating the person. I bet you hate some of the beliefs within religions, ie no blood transfusions for dying children but I'd hope you don't hate the people that believe in it.
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Re: One signal will put an end to all religions

Post by gangrenous » October 3, 2015, 9:15 pm

Seiffert82 wrote:Like most debates about the content of the Bible, there are way too many passages quoted here out of context or without an understanding of the historical environment in which it was written. Quoting certain 'rules' contained in the Old Testament like they are relevant under the paradigm of the New Testament simply demonstrates a complete misunderstanding of the entire journey of God's people and the fundamental reason for the coming of Jesus.
I disagree. This is a weak **** excuse that's commonly trotted out by Christians in my experience. If the bible is the word of God the historical context of the old testament doesn't matter an ounce. There are clearly terrible things in there which shouldn't come from an all-loving deity. It is most likely that it is the word of men from thousands of years ago, not God, and that's why it fits the historical context so neatly.

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Re: One signal will put an end to all religions

Post by gangrenous » October 3, 2015, 9:22 pm

Pigman wrote: What does it matter to any if Dubby or anyone else chooses to believe in God, Santa Clause, Unicorns or the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
Because like it or not religion isn't isolated to the people believing it. There is plenty of **** that overflows from religion to society.

You don't see many militant anti-tarot-card readers because people who follow that particular brand of non-evidence based life approach don't usually use it as a basis for campaigning/discriminating against what other members of society are doing.

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Re: One signal will put an end to all religions

Post by Dr Zaius » October 3, 2015, 9:25 pm

Manbush wrote:
Dr Zaius wrote:I agree with your first statement, but I'd argue that there is plenty of hating the person in these threads.
So when you criticise people's beliefs and opinions you're hating the person not just the belief? I don't believe so as I'm aware they don't always go together.

As I said I like Dubby he's a good bloke, one of my best mates is very religious, his dad's a pastor of a strange Christian denomination that until about 5years ago followed the Old Testament (which is absolutely terrible) and begun teaching the New (which while still bad isn't to the Olds standards), I gather because I criticise Christianity I hate him also?

My dads a racist I criticise him for that but I still love the prick.

The religious and their apologists need to get it into their skulls that you can hate a religious belief without hating the person just as you can hate any other opinion without necessarily hating the person. I bet you hate some of the beliefs within religions, ie no blood transfusions for dying children but I'd hope you don't hate the people that believe in it.
I think you need to go back and read some of the posts in this and the religion thread. There is plenty of hateful language.
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Re: One signal will put an end to all religions

Post by Manbush » October 3, 2015, 9:28 pm

gangrenous wrote:
Seiffert82 wrote:Like most debates about the content of the Bible, there are way too many passages quoted here out of context or without an understanding of the historical environment in which it was written. Quoting certain 'rules' contained in the Old Testament like they are relevant under the paradigm of the New Testament simply demonstrates a complete misunderstanding of the entire journey of God's people and the fundamental reason for the coming of Jesus.
I disagree. This is a weak **** excuse that's commonly trotted out by Christians in my experience. If the bible is the word of God the historical context of the old testament doesn't matter an ounce. There are clearly terrible things in there which shouldn't come from an all-loving deity. It is most likely that it is the word of men from thousands of years ago, not God, and that's why it fits the historical context so neatly.
Yeah it's no coincidence the word of god just happens to fit in with the times they were written, ie if the bible was written today homosexuality would be ok and slavery would be wrong but instead the bible has it the other way around because that's how society was.
"My own opinion is enough for me and I claim the right to have it defended against any consensus, any majority, anywhere, any place, any time, and anyone who disagrees with this can pick a number, get in line and kiss my ass" Christopher Hitchens

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Manbush
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Re: One signal will put an end to all religions

Post by Manbush » October 3, 2015, 9:43 pm

Dr Zaius wrote: I think you need to go back and read some of the posts in this and the religion thread. There is plenty of hateful language.
You want hateful language, listen to a preacher talk about non believers or homosexuals.

If I started an institution that preached all religious people deserve to be tortured or a gay man released a book which was their "manual" to life that had religious people should be stoned to death, how long do you think it would take for me to be closed down or for the book to be banned for inciting hate yet those exact things are defended when done by the religious.

I try to avoid calling people names or insulting them personally but seriously if you think those things are hateful language you should read up on religion. Religion is the only thing that is allowed to be hateful but remain immune to any criticism.
"My own opinion is enough for me and I claim the right to have it defended against any consensus, any majority, anywhere, any place, any time, and anyone who disagrees with this can pick a number, get in line and kiss my ass" Christopher Hitchens

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Schifty
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Re: One signal will put an end to all religions

Post by Schifty » October 3, 2015, 10:09 pm

If you just collect JD's monologues from last minute of every Scrubs episode religion is not required.

Everyone should just live by that.

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greeneyed
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Re: One signal will put an end to all religions

Post by greeneyed » October 3, 2015, 10:11 pm

Tolerance is not saying: "What those people are doing is not right, but I'll 'tolerate' them. And they don't deserve the same rights I have, because what they do is 'not right'. And, oh, some of my best friends are *add what you like*, but of course we love them." If people are not harming others... let them be, and don't judge them.
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Manbush
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Re: One signal will put an end to all religions

Post by Manbush » October 3, 2015, 10:18 pm

Schifty wrote:If you just collect JD's monologues from last minute of every Scrubs episode religion is not required.

Everyone should just live by that.
Or even simpler.

“The Bible should be one sheet of paper. And on that sheet of paper it should say, “Try not to be a ****.” And if you do that every day, you’ll be a good person.”

Jim Jefferies
"My own opinion is enough for me and I claim the right to have it defended against any consensus, any majority, anywhere, any place, any time, and anyone who disagrees with this can pick a number, get in line and kiss my ass" Christopher Hitchens

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