Targeted measures against motorcycle gangs

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Green eyed Mick
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Re: Targeted measures against motorcycle gangs

Post by Green eyed Mick » January 7, 2014, 4:43 pm

Dr Zaius wrote:
Green eyed Mick wrote:
Manbush wrote:What about member of the triads or mafia?
If members of these groups break the law they are prosecuted like anyone else who breaks the law. That is pretty much how the whole legal system is supposed to work.

IMO your intent and your actions should determine the severity of the charge and the sentence, not the patch on your back or the size of the cross u wear around your neck.
The difficulty with organised crime though GEM is that they are nigh on impossible to convict. They stand over and intimidate witnesses, close rank amongst themselves and bribe and corrupt officials.
I agree, we need to arrest and punish offenders but I am not willing to chip away at basic human rights in order to do so. All to often citizens who allow their governments to break the rules in order to achieve a certain goal end up dealing with far worse problems as a result.

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Re: Targeted measures against motorcycle gangs

Post by Dr Zaius » January 7, 2014, 4:45 pm

So what would you propose? Allow them to continue to do as they please?
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Re: Targeted measures against motorcycle gangs

Post by Green eyed Mick » January 7, 2014, 4:54 pm

Dr Zaius wrote:So what would you propose? Allow them to continue to do as they please?
I propose the Police do their jobs and the courts be allowed to do their jobs. If someone breaks the law arrest and prosecute them.

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Re: Targeted measures against motorcycle gangs

Post by The Rickman » January 7, 2014, 4:57 pm

Dr Zaius wrote:I'm actually astounded that any one gives a **** about the rights of these sociopaths, I'm certain they don't give a **** about yours.
I have an incredible amount of friends in Queensland that are outraged by the whole thing too. I really can't understand why.
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Re: Targeted measures against motorcycle gangs

Post by Dr Zaius » January 7, 2014, 5:21 pm

Green eyed Mick wrote:
Dr Zaius wrote:So what would you propose? Allow them to continue to do as they please?
I propose the Police do their jobs and the courts be allowed to do their jobs. If someone breaks the law arrest and prosecute them.
Its been shown world wide over decades that the police and courts are relatively ineffectual when dealing with organised crime. The Queensland Government is taking measures which you have reasonable concerns about. I've asked what they do instead, and you give a vague reply which suggests pretty much more of the same.

I can see that this is going to be a circular argument.
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Re: Targeted measures against motorcycle gangs

Post by Manbush » January 7, 2014, 5:57 pm

Green eyed Mick wrote:
Dr Zaius wrote:So what would you propose? Allow them to continue to do as they please?
I propose the Police do their jobs and the courts be allowed to do their jobs. If someone breaks the law arrest and prosecute them.
I can see both sides but the fatal flaw in this proposition is that the courts haven't done their job for years with gentle smacks on the wrist, minimum sentences and parole need to be lifted for some crimes to force their hands.

One of the problems with the new laws and reason bikies are garnering a lot of support is the wording of the laws, the way they are it'd be quite easy for the police to use them in other ways instead of the reason they were supposedly created.
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Re: Targeted measures against motorcycle gangs

Post by Manbush » January 7, 2014, 5:58 pm

The Nickman wrote:
Dr Zaius wrote:I'm actually astounded that any one gives a **** about the rights of these sociopaths, I'm certain they don't give a **** about yours.
I have an incredible amount of friends in Queensland that are outraged by the whole thing too. I really can't understand why.
The wording of the laws are too open to abuse would be the main reason I'm guessing.
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Re: Targeted measures against motorcycle gangs

Post by Green eyed Mick » January 7, 2014, 6:53 pm

Dr Zaius wrote:
Green eyed Mick wrote:
Dr Zaius wrote:So what would you propose? Allow them to continue to do as they please?
I propose the Police do their jobs and the courts be allowed to do their jobs. If someone breaks the law arrest and prosecute them.
Its been shown world wide over decades that the police and courts are relatively ineffectual when dealing with organised crime. The Queensland Government is taking measures which you have reasonable concerns about. I've asked what they do instead, and you give a vague reply which suggests pretty much more of the same.

I can see that this is going to be a circular argument.
There is disparity throughout the legal system. If you introduced special laws and sanctions to right every imbalance you would cease to have a legal system.

My opposition is based on the fact governments should respect the separation of powers. It is a pillar of our democracy and by attacking it, even for something which most people think is trivial we open a can of worms that may not be that easy to close.

So to answer your question I don't have a solution but neither does Newman. Organised crime is hard to break because it is sophisticated, smart and adaptable. Surely you understand that if crime is the priority for these guys they will happily take off the patches and park the bikes in order to protect their incomes. At which point all this effort and money will be wasted on the few bikies whose desperate need to fit in will see them continue to wear the patch.

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Re: Targeted measures against motorcycle gangs

Post by Dr Zaius » January 7, 2014, 6:55 pm

Actually, what I think will happen is that they will shift their focus to another state with less stringent laws.
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Re: Targeted measures against motorcycle gangs

Post by Green eyed Mick » January 8, 2014, 8:01 am

Dr Zaius wrote:Actually, what I think will happen is that they will shift their focus to another state with less stringent laws.
Other States have similar laws that also aren't working

Check this article out . It basically supports my argument that targetting bikies doesn't really address the criminal activity. Preventing people from associating will just encourage them to employ other strategies. The Mob in New York would use runners so known associates were never in the same room together. They would use lawyers and doctors offices to conduct their business. And they would run operations using 3rd parties without clear associations to the 5 families. If a 3rd party were caught up they would simply find another one. If Bikies are as sophisticated and pervasive as Newman suggests they will get around these laws and the only people that will get caught up in them will be people who these laws weren't meant to target in the first place.

http://theconversation.com/bikie-laws-f ... nces-21740

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Re: Targeted measures against motorcycle gangs

Post by Shadow Boxer » January 8, 2014, 9:12 am

Interestingly the Victorian legislation requires a brief of evidence to go before a supreme court judge before an organisation can be "outlawed". The QLD legislation simply requires the AG to sign off.

The Victorian legislation however has a loophole meaning organisations outlawed in other jurisdictions are also outlawed in Victoria. This is now being used by the Vic police to avoid having to get a judges o.k.

The nutbag QLD AG is now making the rules for everyone.
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Re: Targeted measures against motorcycle gangs

Post by dubby » January 8, 2014, 11:01 am

The Police have been handed powers by the State to apprehend and search etc members of OMCG.

However, due to the seperation of powers, the Courts aren't obliged or even allowed to be pressured or change rulings to suit. I'm sure TR or Michael could elaborate more in relation to that.

While Newman did the right thing in going after these bikies, it was really only destined to fail unless the courts handed out harsher rulings.

I've met with Task Force Hydra before, and let me tell you these bikies are nothing but animals, no worse than animals. They have no respect for our society. They don't consider themselves members of society. They are onto their own and do their own thing.

Bikies are largely responsible for drug trafficking, and acts of violence. The drugs they import aren't your usual Mary Jane, its more hard core materials direct from Asia. Meth in particular is going off in Australia due to its cheap price, accessability, massive effect. Bikies are largely responsible for importing this crap. We must stop this.
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Re: Targeted measures against motorcycle gangs

Post by The Rickman » January 8, 2014, 11:37 am

dubby wrote:I'm sure TR or Michael could elaborate more in relation to that.
Bahahahaha, you obviously don't know Michael that well then...

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Re: Targeted measures against motorcycle gangs

Post by Dr Zaius » January 8, 2014, 11:49 am

To be fair, I'm not sure that Michael possesses the necessary skill set to re-sole a shoe.
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Re: Targeted measures against motorcycle gangs

Post by The Rickman » January 8, 2014, 12:02 pm

Agreed, I doubt he'd have the arm-strength to wield a hammer effectively.
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Re: Targeted measures against motorcycle gangs

Post by Dr Zaius » January 8, 2014, 12:34 pm

Or even hold the hammer with his little girls, hmm, fine bone structured hands.
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Re: Targeted measures against motorcycle gangs

Post by Shadow Boxer » January 9, 2014, 8:04 am

I think if we are going to learn anything from history on this matter we should refer to the words of the original outlaw.
Wasn't this the challenge of you whole life, Superintendent Hare? A feather in your cap? You can't catch me, you don't have a hope of catching me, so you take my friends instead. Over one hundred men arrested, stuck in stinking cells without trial while their crops perish the fields. And guess what? Not one of 'em caves in and tries to claim the reward. Not one of 'em, They loved me the same and hated you all the more, didn't they? Did you really think I was gonna let 'em all rot?

While an outlaw reigns (the police) pocket swells - 'Tis double pay and country girls.

Ned Kelly
There have been about a dozen attempts at consorting laws since and they have all ended in massive failure and extensive police corruption.

I don't know who the Melbourne Hells Angels Sargent at arms is but I sure as hell hope I don't bump into him when he returns to the streets after 6-10 months of 23 hour a day solitary confinement with no tv or reading material for his crime of going to buy his kids an ice cream.
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Re: Targeted measures against motorcycle gangs

Post by The Rickman » January 9, 2014, 8:10 am

What in the hell is SB talking about??
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Re: Targeted measures against motorcycle gangs

Post by Nick » January 9, 2014, 8:19 am

Apparently the Hells Angel's sargent got jailed for buying his kids ice-cream...

Good stuff SB :lol:
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Re: Targeted measures against motorcycle gangs

Post by Shadow Boxer » January 9, 2014, 8:20 am

lol, i'm pretty sure that is how he is going to see it.
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Re: Targeted measures against motorcycle gangs

Post by Dr Zaius » January 9, 2014, 8:27 am

Shadow Boxer wrote:lol, i'm pretty sure that is how he is going to see it.
What does it matter how he sees it? He is a sociopath. In his eyes he is above the law and can do as he pleases. I'm sure that he would view being sent to gaol for any crime, no matter how heinous, as an injustice.
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Re: Targeted measures against motorcycle gangs

Post by Shadow Boxer » January 9, 2014, 8:38 am

Dr Zaius wrote:
Shadow Boxer wrote:lol, i'm pretty sure that is how he is going to see it.
What does it matter how he sees it? He is a sociopath. In his eyes he is above the law and can do as he pleases. I'm sure that he would view being sent to gaol for any crime, no matter how heinous, as an injustice.
I don't like him either, lets kill him.
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Re: Targeted measures against motorcycle gangs

Post by Dr Zaius » January 9, 2014, 8:40 am

Shadow Boxer wrote:
Dr Zaius wrote:
Shadow Boxer wrote:lol, i'm pretty sure that is how he is going to see it.
What does it matter how he sees it? He is a sociopath. In his eyes he is above the law and can do as he pleases. I'm sure that he would view being sent to gaol for any crime, no matter how heinous, as an injustice.
I don't like him either, lets kill him.
Well that escalated quickly.
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Re: Targeted measures against motorcycle gangs

Post by Shadow Boxer » January 9, 2014, 9:29 am

Too subtle ?,

When they outlawed the Kelly gang they implemented a shoot on sight order which meant any member of the police or general public could simply shoot them dead if they saw them.

Didn't really work and the police largely ended up shooting at each other as they hunted him in plain clothes
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Re: Targeted measures against motorcycle gangs

Post by Dr Zaius » January 9, 2014, 9:56 am

Shadow Boxer wrote:Too subtle ?,

When they outlawed the Kelly gang they implemented a shoot on sight order which meant any member of the police or general public could simply shoot them dead if they saw them.

Didn't really work and the police largely ended up shooting at each other as they hunted him in plain clothes

They also had public executions. Ah, the good old days.
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Re: Targeted measures against motorcycle gangs

Post by Green eyed Mick » January 9, 2014, 9:58 am

Dr Zaius wrote:
Shadow Boxer wrote:Too subtle ?,

When they outlawed the Kelly gang they implemented a shoot on sight order which meant any member of the police or general public could simply shoot them dead if they saw them.

Didn't really work and the police largely ended up shooting at each other as they hunted him in plain clothes

They also had public executions. Ah, the good old days.
Good Point. We are much more civilised these days. Much too civilised for laws that demand harsher penalties simply because you choose to associate with people your premier doesn't like.

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Re: Targeted measures against motorcycle gangs

Post by The Rickman » January 9, 2014, 10:11 am

Green eyed Mick wrote:
Dr Zaius wrote:
Shadow Boxer wrote:Too subtle ?,

When they outlawed the Kelly gang they implemented a shoot on sight order which meant any member of the police or general public could simply shoot them dead if they saw them.

Didn't really work and the police largely ended up shooting at each other as they hunted him in plain clothes

They also had public executions. Ah, the good old days.
Good Point. We are much more civilised these days. Much too civilised for laws that demand harsher penalties simply because you choose to associate with people your premier doesn't like.
Hahahahaha just because the Premier doesn't LIKE them??

Nothing to do with being violent drug-dealing criminals, GeM, it's just the Premier doesn't like them.

That'll do me. You live in a complete fantasy land.
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Re: Targeted measures against motorcycle gangs

Post by Dr Zaius » January 9, 2014, 10:24 am

I'd dare say that there aren't too many people that like them.
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Re: Targeted measures against motorcycle gangs

Post by VictorTheViking » January 9, 2014, 10:46 am

The Nickman wrote:
Green eyed Mick wrote:
Dr Zaius wrote:
Shadow Boxer wrote:Too subtle ?,

When they outlawed the Kelly gang they implemented a shoot on sight order which meant any member of the police or general public could simply shoot them dead if they saw them.

Didn't really work and the police largely ended up shooting at each other as they hunted him in plain clothes

They also had public executions. Ah, the good old days.
Good Point. We are much more civilised these days. Much too civilised for laws that demand harsher penalties simply because you choose to associate with people your premier doesn't like.
Hahahahaha just because the Premier doesn't LIKE them??

Nothing to do with being violent drug-dealing criminals, GeM, it's just the Premier doesn't like them.

That'll do me. You live in a complete fantasy land.
The problem with your theory is that not all of them are, by your theory and the queensland law, they all are which is generalisation at its finest

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Re: Targeted measures against motorcycle gangs

Post by The Rickman » January 9, 2014, 10:49 am

VictorTheViking wrote:
The Nickman wrote:
Green eyed Mick wrote:
Dr Zaius wrote:
Shadow Boxer wrote:Too subtle ?,

When they outlawed the Kelly gang they implemented a shoot on sight order which meant any member of the police or general public could simply shoot them dead if they saw them.

Didn't really work and the police largely ended up shooting at each other as they hunted him in plain clothes

They also had public executions. Ah, the good old days.
Good Point. We are much more civilised these days. Much too civilised for laws that demand harsher penalties simply because you choose to associate with people your premier doesn't like.
Hahahahaha just because the Premier doesn't LIKE them??

Nothing to do with being violent drug-dealing criminals, GeM, it's just the Premier doesn't like them.

That'll do me. You live in a complete fantasy land.
The problem with your theory is that not all of them are, by your theory and the queensland law, they all are which is generalisation at its finest
No, by "my theory", an Outlaw Motorcycle Gang is exactly what it's called, not just a bunch of people the Premier "doesn't like".
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Re: Targeted measures against motorcycle gangs

Post by Green eyed Mick » January 9, 2014, 10:53 am

That is my point.

When the state determines that anyone who associates in a certain circle are automatically presumed guilty of certain crimes we threaten the stability and impartiality of our system.

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Re: Targeted measures against motorcycle gangs

Post by The Rickman » January 9, 2014, 10:55 am

Well, as Nicko said earlier, once innocent people start getting locked up for no reason, then I'll start to worry about it.
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Re: Targeted measures against motorcycle gangs

Post by Shadow Boxer » January 9, 2014, 11:14 am

They got locked up last week, they have not been accused of any crime
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Re: Targeted measures against motorcycle gangs

Post by The Rickman » January 9, 2014, 11:17 am

The Nickman wrote:Well, as Nicko said earlier, once innocent people start getting locked up for no reason, then I'll start to worry about it.
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Re: Targeted measures against motorcycle gangs

Post by Shadow Boxer » January 9, 2014, 11:32 am

Sorry, they got locked up for buying an ice cream in company.

This however is the crux of our problem. these laws reverse the presumption of innocence.
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