Green_Viking wrote:Raider Crusader wrote:Man im getting tired...c'mon, i know there's other christians on this forum, someone help me out and take over for a while! Its RC vs The World here!
Sorry Crusader, yes I am a Christian but sorry I don't necessarily agree with your ideas of creation. My belief, and this will probably confuse some people, is that evolution and creationism aren't mutually exculsive.
I became a Christian late in life (27) was not brought up in a religious household or anything, I came to God through my own life experiences. Now this is going to sound very egotistical (so I apologise in advance but I am just trying to explain something), but I am quite intelligent, I have an ordered and logical mind and I grew studying history and science as it appealed to me from an early age. So when I started going to Church and some people were saying that evolution is wrong that disturbed me greatly, I didn't see how it was possible, but the more I read, studied and thought about it the more I realised that neither one nor the other is completely right. Now I realise that some of the people who read this will be annoyed with that belief so I'm sorry, but thats just what I think.
Oh no... not a theistic evolutionist!!!
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I'll be honest - i am 'annoyed' with that belief - not having a go at you, i just really cant fathom how christians can believe in both evolution and the God of the bible.
Atheists believing in evolution is a lot easier to understand in my opinion. Anyways, not wanting to start a whole new arguement, ill have my say in one big fat piece of writing. Note: This is for theistic evolutionists only, so atheists of this forum, please ignore this argument as im sure you will blast the whole thing. Just try to ignore it, as it doesnt apply to your way of thinking. Here we go...
As a Christian, there are many problems with not believing in a literal 6-day creation 6,000 years ago, and trying to fit evolution and long ages into Genesis 1.
If God did use evolution to create, how exactly did He do this? Genesis says plants were created on Day 3.
Genesis 1:11 “Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earthâ€; and it was so.â€
If He used evolution, does that mean He didn’t create any ‘plants’ as such, but rather created one tiny cell, which He then let evolve over billions of years, thus forming millions of different types of plants? Does this also mean that the phrase “according to its kind†only meant until the plant evolved into another type of plant? So grass would produce grass according to its kind… until it evolved into pine trees, which would then reproduce according to its kind?
If this was so, it creates - or ‘evolves’ another problem. The Sun and Moon weren’t created until Day 4. We all know that plants require sunlight to survive. I wonder how all these plants which evolved over billions of years were able to survive without sunlight? Although “light†was created in Day 1, plants actually need sunlight, not just light to photosynthesise (sunlight has a different spectrum across all colors and into the infrared and ultraviolet wavelengths).
Also, if Day 3 isn’t a literal “dayâ€, rather billions of years, does this mean that Day 4 isn’t a literal “day†either? If so, that means the Sun and Moon actually took millions of years to form as well… meaning an even longer time for the plants having no complete sunlight. The Sun is also vital for earths “seasonsâ€. Did plants just live without seasons, or did they evolve to cope with seasons after the sun was in place?
Now we come to Day 5. Genesis 1:20 “Then God said, “Let the waters abound with an abundance of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the firmament of the heavens.†So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.â€
Now, sticking with the ‘evolution long-age’ way of thinking, God didn’t actually create sea creatures and birds as such, but rather one tiny cell which evolved into billions of sea creatures and millions of birds over millions of years. I again presume that “according to its kind†only means until it evolves into something else.
This creates another problem. Evolution says that birds evolved from reptiles - but reptiles weren’t created until Day 6. Not sure how to make that fit. Maybe when God said He “created†the animals on Day 6, He actually meant they evolved from the cells He created back on Day 5 (which was actually a few million years before). Mentioning birds with wings back on Day 5 must be a typo.
Also “created†or “evolved†on Day 6 was “manâ€. Humans. **** sapiens sapiens. Now when God said He made man out of the dust of the earth, He actually meant He allowed cells he made back in Day 5 (a few million years before), to evolve into reptiles into mammals into apes into people.
So “man†wasn’t created in the image and likeness of God, but only became so after the primitive apes evolved the ability to walk upright, become smarter, and lose a lot of body hair. And learn to talk. And have a more normal-looking nose.
After all this evolving, why did Adam not “find a helper comparable to him� It seems evolution wasn’t kind to poor Adam, and a human woman didn’t evolve. Or Adam thought the ape-women were still too hairy for him. So now God had to intervene.
Genesis 2:21-22 “And the Lord god caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place. And then the rib which the Lord God had taken from man He made into a woman, and he brought her to the man.â€
Not sure how to interpret that verse or *'s origin using an evolutionary long-age viewpoint. *'s also interesting to note that the only bone in the human body that literally ‘grows back’ is the lowest rib.
Now we have the problem of The Fall. The bible makes it quite clear that it was Adam and *'s sin that brought death into the world. If the earth had already been around for a few billion years, billions of creatures would have already lived and died.
If there was already death in the world, then what was “the fall� Why was there a curse of death if death already existed? If there was no fall, *'s no need for redemption from sin, which means Jesus died for nothing, and *'s no need for ‘salvation’.
Despite the popular belief that evolution and the bible are compatible, in reality they aren’t. If you can’t believe Genesis, how can you believe the other books of the bible? How can you trust what the bible says about the need of salvation? You can’t believe some parts of the bible and ignore other parts.
I also wonder when ‘murder’ actually became morally wrong. I presume apes killing apes wasn’t murder, but when they evolved into humans it was murder. When exactly did humans get a ‘soul’? If God says Adam was the first man, who were his parents? If they weren’t fully human, what were they?
More on this topic can be found on these sites/pages:
http://www.gotquestions.org/questions_Creation.html
http://creationontheweb.com/content/view/3055/
http://creationontheweb.com/content/view/1018/
http://creationontheweb.com/content/view/795/
http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebo ... ngTOC.html