The Religion Thread

[Off]

sorry mate but usually when you hear people say "its not for my benefit its for theirs", then it is being a bit smug, bit condescending, like you know best, like the person who said they would laugh at the non believers when they go to hell no matter how good a person they were. The smugness mightnt have been intentional, but it was still there, and is common in all extremes of beliefs. From science, and all religions.

One thing i will give credit to christianity is how theyve adapted their bible, beliefs and laws to suit modern society, and generallly are about being a good person, unfortunately not all religions have adapted or promote peace, but i guess in a way have to respect how theyve stuck to the word, though some religious texts arent a nice read, ive read a lot about different religions as i find them interesting, and MODERN Christianity does seem to promote peace, so for that while i still find the idea irrational, it is the lesser of the evils, and does do many good things, but i am curious why they need to ask members for money as they would have to be one of the richest organisations in the world. Way i see it, treat everyone with respect, no matter what belief they have, keep an open mind and stay out of each others way. Religion shouldnt hijack science classes, like science shouldnt invade religion classes

that answers my original question...would we be here without it..NO imo.

[bleeding green]

Man im getting tired...c'mon, i know there's other christians on this forum, someone help me out and take over for a while! Its RC vs The World here!

Mate you are doing a pretty good job on your own, but it does seem like the whole world is against you.
That is the reason I like to keep my religous beleifs to myself. I understand that there are many theories out there and really there is not much evidence at all to back any of them up. We all have differant reasons for choosing the one we follow, some are too hard, some we were raised with, taught at school, bashed into by friends, life changing moments etc etc. I personally try to stay away from the topic and live by my beliefs not so much by mouth but more by my actions.

[EdgeC]

Man im getting tired...c'mon, i know there's other christians on this forum, someone help me out and take over for a while! Its RC vs The World here!

Mate you are doing a pretty good job on your own, but it does seem like the whole world is against you.
That is the reason I like to keep my religous beleifs to myself. I understand that there are many theories out there and really there is not much evidence at all to back any of them up. We all have differant reasons for choosing the one we follow, some are too hard, some we were raised with, taught at school, bashed into by friends, life changing moments etc etc. I personally try to stay away from the topic and live by my beliefs not so much by mouth but more by my actions.

If more people lived by this line of thinking i think the world would be a better place.

[Manbush]

yep exactly, but and there is always a but, if you have read some texts from certain religions, youd hope noone lives by those, i try to keep well read, and boy there are some evil ones out there

[Canberra Milk]

I really can't stand religion-bashers. Should we all go into the Canberra Raiders forum and say STOP EVERYTHING! THE RAIDERS ARE NOT REAL!

[Michael]

What are you crapping on about Kris?

[Shezza]

Lets talk about mormons - they have heaps of credibility!

How good is the SOuth Park episode .... "dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb ... etc"

[Canberra Milk]

What are you crapping on about Kris?

I thought it was obvious?

[Manbush]

Yeah Shezza, South Park have done some great religious episdoes, always good for a laugh, and theyve torn Scientology apart a few times

[Green_Viking]

Man im getting tired...c'mon, i know there's other christians on this forum, someone help me out and take over for a while! Its RC vs The World here!

Sorry Crusader, yes I am a Christian but sorry I don't necessarily agree with your ideas of creation. My belief, and this will probably confuse some people, is that evolution and creationism aren't mutually exculsive.

I became a Christian late in life (27) was not brought up in a religious household or anything, I came to God through my own life experiences. Now this is going to sound very egotistical (so I apologise in advance but I am just trying to explain something), but I am quite intelligent, I have an ordered and logical mind and I grew studying history and science as it appealed to me from an early age. So when I started going to Church and some people were saying that evolution is wrong that disturbed me greatly, I didn't see how it was possible, but the more I read, studied and thought about it the more I realised that neither one nor the other is completely right. Now I realise that some of the people who read this will be annoyed with that belief so I'm sorry, but thats just what I think.

[Sugarman]

My belief, and this will probably confuse some people, is that evolution and creationism aren't mutually exculsive.

Thats my thoughts exactly.

[Manbush]

Green Viking many religious people agree with you, even Pope John Paul believed in evolution, so believing in 1 doesnt mean you cant also believe in the other, it doesnt detract from your faith

[Raider Crusader]

Man im getting tired...c'mon, i know there's other christians on this forum, someone help me out and take over for a while! Its RC vs The World here!

Sorry Crusader, yes I am a Christian but sorry I don't necessarily agree with your ideas of creation. My belief, and this will probably confuse some people, is that evolution and creationism aren't mutually exculsive.

I became a Christian late in life (27) was not brought up in a religious household or anything, I came to God through my own life experiences. Now this is going to sound very egotistical (so I apologise in advance but I am just trying to explain something), but I am quite intelligent, I have an ordered and logical mind and I grew studying history and science as it appealed to me from an early age. So when I started going to Church and some people were saying that evolution is wrong that disturbed me greatly, I didn't see how it was possible, but the more I read, studied and thought about it the more I realised that neither one nor the other is completely right. Now I realise that some of the people who read this will be annoyed with that belief so I'm sorry, but thats just what I think.

Oh no... not a theistic evolutionist!!! .

I'll be honest - i am 'annoyed' with that belief - not having a go at you, i just really cant fathom how christians can believe in both evolution and the God of the bible.

Atheists believing in evolution is a lot easier to understand in my opinion. Anyways, not wanting to start a whole new arguement, ill have my say in one big fat piece of writing. Note: This is for theistic evolutionists only, so atheists of this forum, please ignore this argument as im sure you will blast the whole thing. Just try to ignore it, as it doesnt apply to your way of thinking. Here we go...



As a Christian, there are many problems with not believing in a literal 6-day creation 6,000 years ago, and trying to fit evolution and long ages into Genesis 1.

If God did use evolution to create, how exactly did He do this? Genesis says plants were created on Day 3.

Genesis 1:11 “Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth”; and it was so.”

If He used evolution, does that mean He didn’t create any ‘plants’ as such, but rather created one tiny cell, which He then let evolve over billions of years, thus forming millions of different types of plants? Does this also mean that the phrase “according to its kind” only meant until the plant evolved into another type of plant? So grass would produce grass according to its kind… until it evolved into pine trees, which would then reproduce according to its kind?

If this was so, it creates - or ‘evolves’ another problem. The Sun and Moon weren’t created until Day 4. We all know that plants require sunlight to survive. I wonder how all these plants which evolved over billions of years were able to survive without sunlight? Although “light” was created in Day 1, plants actually need sunlight, not just light to photosynthesise (sunlight has a different spectrum across all colors and into the infrared and ultraviolet wavelengths).

Also, if Day 3 isn’t a literal “day”, rather billions of years, does this mean that Day 4 isn’t a literal “day” either? If so, that means the Sun and Moon actually took millions of years to form as well… meaning an even longer time for the plants having no complete sunlight. The Sun is also vital for earths “seasons”. Did plants just live without seasons, or did they evolve to cope with seasons after the sun was in place?

Now we come to Day 5. Genesis 1:20 “Then God said, “Let the waters abound with an abundance of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the firmament of the heavens.” So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.”

Now, sticking with the ‘evolution long-age’ way of thinking, God didn’t actually create sea creatures and birds as such, but rather one tiny cell which evolved into billions of sea creatures and millions of birds over millions of years. I again presume that “according to its kind” only means until it evolves into something else.

This creates another problem. Evolution says that birds evolved from reptiles - but reptiles weren’t created until Day 6. Not sure how to make that fit. Maybe when God said He “created” the animals on Day 6, He actually meant they evolved from the cells He created back on Day 5 (which was actually a few million years before). Mentioning birds with wings back on Day 5 must be a typo.

Also “created” or “evolved” on Day 6 was “man”. Humans. **** sapiens sapiens. Now when God said He made man out of the dust of the earth, He actually meant He allowed cells he made back in Day 5 (a few million years before), to evolve into reptiles into mammals into apes into people.

So “man” wasn’t created in the image and likeness of God, but only became so after the primitive apes evolved the ability to walk upright, become smarter, and lose a lot of body hair. And learn to talk. And have a more normal-looking nose.

After all this evolving, why did Adam not “find a helper comparable to him”? It seems evolution wasn’t kind to poor Adam, and a human woman didn’t evolve. Or Adam thought the ape-women were still too hairy for him. So now God had to intervene.

Genesis 2:21-22 “And the Lord god caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place. And then the rib which the Lord God had taken from man He made into a woman, and he brought her to the man.”

Not sure how to interpret that verse or *'s origin using an evolutionary long-age viewpoint. *'s also interesting to note that the only bone in the human body that literally ‘grows back’ is the lowest rib.

Now we have the problem of The Fall. The bible makes it quite clear that it was Adam and *'s sin that brought death into the world. If the earth had already been around for a few billion years, billions of creatures would have already lived and died.

If there was already death in the world, then what was “the fall”? Why was there a curse of death if death already existed? If there was no fall, *'s no need for redemption from sin, which means Jesus died for nothing, and *'s no need for ‘salvation’.

Despite the popular belief that evolution and the bible are compatible, in reality they aren’t. If you can’t believe Genesis, how can you believe the other books of the bible? How can you trust what the bible says about the need of salvation? You can’t believe some parts of the bible and ignore other parts.

I also wonder when ‘murder’ actually became morally wrong. I presume apes killing apes wasn’t murder, but when they evolved into humans it was murder. When exactly did humans get a ‘soul’? If God says Adam was the first man, who were his parents? If they weren’t fully human, what were they?

More on this topic can be found on these sites/pages:

http://www.gotquestions.org/questions_Creation.html
http://creationontheweb.com/content/view/3055/
http://creationontheweb.com/content/view/1018/
http://creationontheweb.com/content/view/795/
http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebo ... ngTOC.html

[Manbush]

Raider Crusader will you stop using animals innaccurately to try to prove your theories, apes killing apes in their own society is considered wrong, they will be outcast or retribution will be dished out, animals do have their own right and wrongs within their packs, just as humans do or else there would be complete chaos in the animanl kingdom and species would wipe themselves out, Im not saying its a sign of evolution, but when you use blatant lies to back up your beliefs it discredits your arguement.

The main problem i see is you take everything in the bible literally, where as most people use common sense and know some things are just fables, you take the extreme approach (as your name would imply), which is always where the danger comes from, extremists, even Pope John Paul believed in evolution, and wasnt he meant to be the mouth of god while alive. You take 1 document which has been edited throughout history as fact even when it contradicts historical evidence, what makes that document so reliable and honest, and what about the bits that have been ommitted from the bible over the years, have you ever heard of the" Lost books of the bible" the parts christianlty removed because it didnt fit in with their beliefs of god

[bleeding green]

Raider crusader, it seems that you take every word of the bible as it is written with out tolerating any devience from it. TBH, if creation was as is written in the bible, and this is something that has bothered me for a long time, then how did population occur when Adam and Eve only had Kane and Able? On top of that, One killed the other (can;t remember which)? Is there any further mention of God creating more people?
As a practicing catholic I ise the bible as a guide for how I should live my life but will not get into a debate with anyone as to what is the right or wrong.

[christoraider]

finally some one with sense , yay

[Raider Crusader]

Raider Crusader will you stop using animals innaccurately to try to prove your theories, apes killing apes in their own society is considered wrong, they will be outcast or retribution will be dished out, animals do have their own right and wrongs within their packs, just as humans do or else there would be complete chaos in the animanl kingdom and species would wipe themselves out, Im not saying its a sign of evolution, but when you use blatant lies to back up your beliefs it discredits your arguement.

What 'blatant lies' am i saying? I never said apes killing apes isnt wrong in their own society, i merely said it isnt 'murder' as we would see it. The Ten Commandments were put in place for people - one of which is "Thou shalt not murder". I'm asking which point of human evolution was killing considered 'murder'?

The main problem i see is you take everything in the bible literally, where as most people use common sense and know some things are just fables, you take the extreme approach (as your name would imply), which is always where the danger comes from, extremists, even Pope John Paul believed in evolution, and wasnt he meant to be the mouth of god while alive. You take 1 document which has been edited throughout history as fact even when it contradicts historical evidence, what makes that document so reliable and honest, and what about the bits that have been ommitted from the bible over the years, have you ever heard of the" Lost books of the bible" the parts christianlty removed because it didnt fit in with their beliefs of god

Yes i take the bible literally - as a christian, that's what your supposed to do. How can you believe the salvation parts but ignore the creation parts? How can you believe any of it if you cant believe some of it? Believe me, Genesis is not meant to be taken as a fable.

And as ive said before, i pay no attention to what the pope says as he is a mere man - im not catholic and the pope is no better than anyone imo. Im pretty sure Pope John Paul had something to do with Hitler and the Nazis, but im not 100% on the facts there.

And the Dead Sea Scrolls proved that the bible hadnt been 'edited'. And id like to know what historical evidence contradicts the bible

[Raider Crusader]

Raider crusader, it seems that you take every word of the bible as it is written with out tolerating any devience from it. TBH, if creation was as is written in the bible, and this is something that has bothered me for a long time, then how did population occur when Adam and Eve only had Kane and Able? On top of that, One killed the other (can;t remember which)? Is there any further mention of God creating more people?As a practicing catholic I ise the bible as a guide for how I should live my life but will not get into a debate with anyone as to what is the right or wrong.

i shake my head... as a practising catholic you sure dont know your bible too well. Do you seriously think Adam and Eve only had Cain and Abel? Yes, Cain killed Abel, but Adam and Eve wouldve had loads of kids by then.

We even know that Eve had a 'replacement son' for Abel named Seth. And with Adam and Eve being the first people, with seemingly 'perfect' genetics, their offspring wouldve married and reproduced with each other. There wouldnt have been the genetic dgradation back then which causes birth-defects these days. Inbreeding was banished by Moses(?) in Leviticus later on.


Adam/Eve/Children stuff: http://www.gotquestions.org/Adam-and-Eve-questions.html
Cains wife stuff: http://www.gotquestions.org/Cains-wife.html
And no, God didnt create any more people: http://www.gotquestions.org/God-create- ... eople.html

And no, i dont deviate from what the bible says.

[christoraider]

dude , relax and get a f*****life , your right , absolutely right , get over it this has been goin on for too long , this started out about mickey pea , f*** man you **** me too tears , get over yourself , its a f***** football forum
one last question , why am i wrong if i dont beleive in what you beleive in ?

[Butters]

I would jump in here and give my two cents worth but honestly this is not the place for a religious debate, an online rugby league forum. This is all I will say:

To me, religion and faith is something within yourself, something you experience, something you hold true to your own beliefs. I would never expect someone to hold the exact same beliefs as me and in reality, it rarely happens. All forms of spirituality are open to interpretation and personal experience.

Can we please leave this, its not constructive for anyone.

[Green_Viking]

I'm going to agree with Butters here, I think that this debate in such an open forum should stop. I am quite happy to continue this discussion in private so if anyone would like to talk further on this please feel free to PM me.

I do not deny anyone to believe what they believe I merely ask that people keep an open mind for the thoughts of others.

For those Christians out there, I know there are a few on here, I ask you this question. Is what you're debating here really healthy? By that I mean, are you doing more harm than good? Obviously there are some people on this forum who take exception to religion so is having it shoved down their throat a good thing? As a great man once said "there is a time and a place for everything" while this may be the time I don't think this is the place. I just ask you to look to God and ask him if he thinks this is such a good idea. But I think you know the answer already.

Thank you.

[Raider Crusader]

dude , relax and get a f*****life , your right , absolutely right , get over it this has been goin on for too long , this started out about mickey pea , f*** man you **** me too tears , get over yourself , its a f***** football forum
one last question , why am i wrong if i dont beleive in what you beleive in ?

Hmmm, im trying to decipher your post, but most of it seems to have got lost in cyberspace and is appearing as “****”.

Dude, by the sound of things you’re the one who needs to relax. This IS a forum, where people are supposed to be allowed to share an opinion other than yours without being abused with “****”.

You seem to think religion shouldn’t be discussed because *'s a rugby league forum… how about you say the same thing in the ‘Politics’ thread and ‘Tom, Dick, and Harry featuring Raider_Bob Chat’ thread or whatever it is.

How about we also delete all the other topics like Current Affairs, Entertainment, Other Sports, and The Lime Lounge too? They don’t have much to do with rugby league.

*'s not like debating religion is the same as debating your favourite colour. *'s not like im saying “Blue is the best colour and anyone who disagrees is wrong”. Ultimately *'s only one ‘right’ religion, and im simply trying to defend and put forwards my beliefs.

Of course I don’t see you going off at the atheists here for putting forwards their beliefs - *'s right, attack the moronic Christian *'s views I don’t like so ill act like a 2 year old.

If you don’t like religious debate, don’t read the thread. Simple. Get over it.

You also tell me to ‘get over’ myself. What exactly should I be ‘getting over’? My beliefs? I don’t hold my self in high regard, ive stated already im no better than anyone on this forum.

I think you need to get over yourself and be a little more objective and grow up. I think I should be able to write stuff when people start arguing using things they don’t know about.

Im getting tired of having to tell people “Adam and Eve had more than 2 kids” “I don’t care what the pope says” “The bible doesn’t say the earth is flat”… blah blah blah. People would say im ignorant, but some of the arguments being used are equally as ignorant.

And it didn’t just start with Micky Paea, it started when someone said religion is the biggest curse on humanity. I should be allowed to defend that without being censored because you don’t like what I have to say.

You ask why you’re wrong if you don’t believe what I believe. Well, *'s because I believe your belief is wrong… how else can I say it? Im sure you think im wrong for not believing in what you believe.

I don’t expect you to share by beliefs - im trying to get people to think outside their own little square and actually think “is there a God?”, “where will I go if I die tonight?”.

Sorry that I cause such trauma to your seemingly delicate mood by putting forward my opinion in a thread titled “Religious Debate”.

And by the way, i do have a life - a somewhat happier one than you'll have when we're dead. All im trying to do is let people know they can have a happy afterlife aswell. Just telling it how it is.

[Raider Crusader]

For those Christians out there, I know there are a few on here, I ask you this question. Is what you're debating here really healthy? By that I mean, are you doing more harm than good? Obviously there are some people on this forum who take exception to religion so is having it shoved down their throat a good thing? As a great man once said "there is a time and a place for everything" while this may be the time I don't think this is the place. I just ask you to look to God and ask him if he thinks this is such a good idea. But I think you know the answer already.

Thank you.

I have to say i disagree (what a surprise i hear the members say).

I really dont think im doing more harm than good - it would be more harmful if no-one "heard the Word" and ended up going to hell because im too scared ill get abused.

Im not trying to shove it down anyones throat - they have a choice if they want to read it or not. Im not a JW invading their home.

And if this isnt the time or place, when and where is? Most people ill never meet face to face. Its now or never... i just hope no-one dies anytime soon before giving it some thought.

And asking God if this debate is a good idea? I think it is. Maybe people will think about what ive said... maybe not.

Id rather tell people about my beliefs than shut up and let them die. This isnt about me, despite what people think.

[Manbush]

Lol it is about you trying to save us poor non believers, aint gonna happen, its the 21st century, most people are over superstitions that belong in the dark ages. Im just thankful youre not a muslim, because people who believe every word of a religious ancient text are dangerous, extremists. Thankfully organised religion is dying, more priests nuns etc are dying than new ones joining, more and more people are turning away

[-LG-]

Lets talk about mormons - they have heaps of credibility!

How good is the SOuth Park episode .... "dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb ... etc"

Ah yes the Mormons. The polygamous ones in particular are interesting.

Anyone here watch Big Love? Now that is an awesome show.

[Raider Crusader]

Lol it is about you trying to save us poor non believers, aint gonna happen, its the 21st century, most people are over superstitions that belong in the dark ages. Im just thankful youre not a muslim, because people who believe every word of a religious ancient text are dangerous, extremists. Thankfully organised religion is dying, more priests nuns etc are dying than new ones joining, more and more people are turning away

Never said it was 'gonna happen' - in fact, i doubt anyone will change their beliefs from what ive said. All i can do is say what i believe... if people change, good. If not, well, their loss IMO.

And not all people who believe every word of an ancient text are dangerous extremists. Like me and most christians, i dont think im doing much to harm society, unlike muslims who are killing thousands of innocent people and blowing up buildings.

And ill say again, i dont pay any attention to the pope, nuns, priests, ect - they are catholic, im not.

[Manbush]

Just want to point out most christians dont believe every word in the bible, i know many religious people, went to a catholic school, and you are the only person ive come across that believes every word, thats why i find your arguement so hard to fathom, as for nuns and priests, was just showing that organised religion is dying. (Except for Islam and Scientology which are 2 that are growing unfortunately)

[Peter Garrett]

http://www.boreme.com/boreme/funny-2007 ... mos-p1.php

[Sugarman]

http://www.boreme.com/boreme/funny-2007 ... mos-p1.php

Gold

[Sossman]

On the topic of Religion there is no right or wrong. I'm not going to say on side is right or not.

I'm not a believer, but if you want to see evidence that god exists, look at my Uni results.

I think this is the wrong place to have a religious discussion. Actually, talking about it in any place that isn't a church is probably a bit wrong and will always fire people up like it has done in this thread.

Your beliefs on the topic of religion, like listening to George Michael, is one of those things you should just keep to yourself.

[-LG-]

Sossy!

You're alive....

[Ella_Ruiz]

i find it sad that people want respect for being Christians, but bag out Islam, please don't do that. I know that there are some religious organisations that force beliefs on others (Jehovah's Witnesses, for example) and that there are religions that seem "fundemental" or too "strict" and it's easy to scrutinise them, There needs to be a respect for all religions other than just Christianity.

I personally like understanding and knowing about religions other than my own (as i'm Roman Catholic) i studied some major religions when i was senior year of high school and it allowed me to develop an open mind for them. I'm worried that this thread will offend more people, it should be locked imo

[Michael]

I personally like understanding and knowing about religions other than my own (as i'm Roman Catholic) i studied some major religions when i was senior year of high school and it allowed me to develop an open mind for them. I'm worried that this thread will offend more people, it should be locked imo

Typical bloody Rock Chopper, always pushing for more censorship! Did Herr Pope Rausinger put you up to this?

[Ella_Ruiz]

nope, not lucky enough to meet him at WYD Michael... and you're off context to what i am conveying

[Manbush]

Yeah Ella, i find it funny that one religion expects respect while bagging the rest out, youve studied religion, have you ever read the Koran? Talks about Mohamed, murdering people, raping women, even raping children in front of the parents