The Politics Thread 2018

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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by Schifty »

Trump's new National Secuirty advisor is the bloke that wants to take military action against North Korea and Iran.

#ThisIsFine.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by The Nickman »

greeneyed wrote:
reptar wrote: March 22, 2018, 6:13 pm
The Nickman wrote:Totally agree, Dibbers. It’s about time people were taxed on their spendings and not on their income. Only way to make it truly fair IMO
Some kind of consumption tax?
A shift to a (properly broad) consumption tax makes a lot of sense in terms of the efficiency of the tax. The issue will be that many low income people would be left worse off, without compensation. And the compensation is expensive. So that's why a shift to consumption taxes are so difficult to implement. It would be good if if happened, but repeatedly politicians baulk at leaving some people worse off.
Well this is where a tax needs to be sensible. If there’s no tax on fresh foods, things such as fruit, vegetables, meats and pasta, and things like rent and electricity are also tax free, then the “poor” don’t suffer.

Tax things like alcohol, cigarettes, fast food and gambling, sure, but make the bare essentials everyone needs to live tax free and it all works perfectly IMO.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by greeneyed »

The Nickman wrote: March 23, 2018, 11:46 am
greeneyed wrote:
reptar wrote: March 22, 2018, 6:13 pm
The Nickman wrote:Totally agree, Dibbers. It’s about time people were taxed on their spendings and not on their income. Only way to make it truly fair IMO
Some kind of consumption tax?
A shift to a (properly broad) consumption tax makes a lot of sense in terms of the efficiency of the tax. The issue will be that many low income people would be left worse off, without compensation. And the compensation is expensive. So that's why a shift to consumption taxes are so difficult to implement. It would be good if if happened, but repeatedly politicians baulk at leaving some people worse off.
Well this is where a tax needs to be sensible. If there’s no tax on fresh foods, things such as fruit, vegetables, meats and pasta, and things like rent and electricity are also tax free, then the “poor” don’t suffer.

Tax things like alcohol, cigarettes, fast food and gambling, sure, but make the bare essentials everyone needs to live tax free and it all works perfectly IMO.
The difficulty is this significantly reduces the efficiency of the tax, causes distortions in consumption decisions, is difficult to administer (deciding what's in and out), and significantly reduces the revenue. It would actually be better to compensate the poor through the welfare system.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by The Nickman »

I disagree. The purpose for the tax reforms in all our minds here is to adequately get money from the high earners while leaving the lower income families alone. And taxing fresh fruit and vegetables or rent is going to make no difference to the high earners. I know myself, for instance, as a medium income earner absolutely don’t spend most of my money on fruit and vegetables or rent or electricity.

And if you tax these items and then subsidise the lower income earners then what’s the point? Just don’t tax basic essentials, as you’re not trying to raise money from them.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by The Nickman »

Holidays, flights, cars, restaurants, taxis, hotels, furniture, tvs, football tickets, etc etc etc, these are the things that need to be taxed, not fresh food, rent or electricity

And I’m only including things like meat, vegetables, fruit and pasta, basic essentials only. Still tax coffee, peanut butter, everything else, but just make it so people who absolutely need to live don’t have to pay tax. Everyone else does on everything else.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by Dibbers »

The Nickman wrote: March 23, 2018, 12:20 pm Holidays, flights, cars, restaurants, taxis, hotels, furniture, tvs, football tickets, etc etc etc, these are the things that need to be taxed, not fresh food, rent or electricity

And I’m only including things like meat, vegetables, fruit and pasta, basic essentials only. Still tax coffee, peanut butter, everything else, but just make it so people who absolutely need to live don’t have to pay tax. Everyone else does on everything else.
I'd be on board with that. Anything that has been pre-prepared is taxed, any fresh food (fruit, veg, meat, eggs etc) is tax free.

GE, if you give the poorer family welfare to compensate, you'll get the same problems we have now where it's based on Taxable income etc. The poorer folk will still pay some tax based on their consumption, as nickman said, peanut butter, alcohol, soft drink etc. But everyone should be able to buy staples and not be taxed for it.

You'll probably still need an income tax to a degree, but it would be significantly less and you can remove all the crazy tax minimisation loopholes and only tax people based on their total salary earned. You'd be decreasing the tax brackets to compensate, but it means everyone pays a share of tax and can't leverage off a larger income to pay less tax.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by The Nickman »

I don’t believe you need an income tax at all under the system I’ve proposed. The whole thing works perfectly in my head, it’s just I struggle to explain it perfectly and I really can’t be fudged trying to elaborate to great degrees when typing.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

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The Nickman wrote: March 23, 2018, 12:46 pm I don’t believe you need an income tax at all under the system I’ve proposed. The whole thing works perfectly in my head, it’s just I struggle to explain it perfectly and I really can’t be fudged trying to elaborate to great degrees when typing.
I think (at least at the start) you'd need a vastly reduced income tax. There'd be too many variables for Govt to be able to budget with until there was a few years of data to properly forecast. You'll find that in the early days, people will adjust their spending patterns until they're used to the system.

I liken it to a toll road, when a toll is introduced, people will avoid it like the plague at the start because they don't want to pay it... then they realise the hell they go through in massive traffic jams and bite the bullet and start using it... then it becomes just another weekly expense... (even though i think the whole premise of a privately operated toll road is pathetic).
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Re: The Politics Thread 2017

Post by Green eyed Mick »

Schifty wrote: February 19, 2018, 4:33 pm if someone shooting up a kindergarten didn't do anything nothing ever will.

Those parents who lost children still get hassled by NRA far right wing nut jobs saying they are crisis actors.

Congress voted down the most piss weak of legislation as the parents sat in there in Washington.

They are too far gone. People will be allowed to marry their gun before any sort of control is put in place.
http://www.news.com.au/world/north-amer ... c98be26293

This is a big step forward.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by Green eyed Mick »

New ACT electorate announced.

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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by Dibbers »

Anyone read anything about the Universal Base Income that was mentioned on the project?

Doesn't seem like a bad concept... still a ways off being needed, with some factors that would need to be considered (how to factor for individual debts etc) but its an interesting concept...
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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by The Nickman »

Dibbers wrote: April 6, 2018, 2:26 pm Anyone read anything about the Universal Base Income that was mentioned on the project?

Doesn't seem like a bad concept... still a ways off being needed, with some factors that would need to be considered (how to factor for individual debts etc) but its an interesting concept...
I think it's the way of the future, to be perfectly honest.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

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The Nickman wrote: April 6, 2018, 2:52 pm
Dibbers wrote: April 6, 2018, 2:26 pm Anyone read anything about the Universal Base Income that was mentioned on the project?

Doesn't seem like a bad concept... still a ways off being needed, with some factors that would need to be considered (how to factor for individual debts etc) but its an interesting concept...
I think it's the way of the future, to be perfectly honest.
I definitely think it will come to a point where that'll happen, i don't think it'll be as quick as some are predicting though...

I was reading through the comments on the article in SMH, and some people didn't get the concept at all. How do we fund it? It'll just mean people that work will pay more tax etc...

It's actually quite a fair system and will remove the need for most of the welfare we currently have and have to administer....

I will join Waleed Ali in welcoming our new Robot Overlords.

oh and there were that many "Good Griefs" that i thought i was on the GH for a second too.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by Schifty »

Green eyed Mick wrote: April 6, 2018, 2:15 pm New ACT electorate announced.

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Looks like I'm moving electorates!

Interesting to see the South Siders get an electorate named after Mr. Bean.. :hmmm
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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by T_R »

Bogan electorate. Will probably fall One Nation.

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Son, we live in a world that has forums, and those forums have to be guarded by Mods. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Nickman? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Lucy, and you curse GE. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know -- that GE’s moderation, while tragic, probably saved lives; and my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, keeps threads on track and under the appropriately sized, highlighted green headings.
You want moderation because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that forum -- you need me on that forum. We use words like "stay on topic," "use the appropriate forum," "please delete." We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very moderation that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather that you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you get a green handle and edit a post. Either way, I don't give a DAMN what you think about moderation.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by Schifty »

On the plus side Greeneyed can now vote and campaign for me as we are in the same electorate.

About time the GH endorsed a candidate.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by Green eyed Mick »

What's your platform?
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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by Manbush »

Green eyed Mick wrote: April 6, 2018, 5:03 pm What's your platform?
Think he’ll follow Trumps lead and rely on Twitter for his policy updates.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by gangrenous »

Dibbers wrote:Anyone read anything about the Universal Base Income that was mentioned on the project?

Doesn't seem like a bad concept... still a ways off being needed, with some factors that would need to be considered (how to factor for individual debts etc) but its an interesting concept...
Why do you need to factor for individual debts?

I absolutely think we’re going this way, be interesting to see how long it takes.

I saw an article condemning Waleed for mansplaining the concept to a fellow female panellist who suggested only giving it to those in need. It’s not mansplaining if someone is missing the fundamental point of the discussion idiots! Whoever wrote the article could use some mansplaining.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by FuiFui BradBrad »

Dibbers wrote:Anyone read anything about the Universal Base Income that was mentioned on the project?

Doesn't seem like a bad concept... still a ways off being needed, with some factors that would need to be considered (how to factor for individual debts etc) but its an interesting concept...
Yeah I’m a fan of this approach. You could even top it up by employing a “Robot Tax” on businesses.

If they’re saving so much money replacing people with machines, they’ll have more money to contribute to the UBI
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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by gangrenous »

Hmmm... how would you implement a robot tax? Be an interesting challenge.

I think you’d have to do something like have it based on the difference between the employees the company has, with the average for a company with equivalent revenue/profit historically?
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The Politics Thread 2018

Post by FuiFui BradBrad »

gangrenous wrote:Hmmm... how would you implement a robot tax? Be an interesting challenge.

I think you’d have to do something like have it based on the difference between the employees the company has, with the average for a company with equivalent revenue/profit historically? Image
Yeah that was my thinking. Or find out on average how many small, medium and large businesses have made staff redundant due to robotics and then work out their average salary saved.

Doing it that way would mean the manufacturing industry would get a significant hit though.

If they choose automation over people, then they need to do more to support the people they are kicking to the kerb
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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

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This is comedy

You'd be much better removing disincentives to employing people.

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Son, we live in a world that has forums, and those forums have to be guarded by Mods. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Nickman? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Lucy, and you curse GE. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know -- that GE’s moderation, while tragic, probably saved lives; and my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, keeps threads on track and under the appropriately sized, highlighted green headings.
You want moderation because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that forum -- you need me on that forum. We use words like "stay on topic," "use the appropriate forum," "please delete." We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very moderation that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather that you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you get a green handle and edit a post. Either way, I don't give a DAMN what you think about moderation.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by FuiFui BradBrad »

I can’t see that happening, when automation is so much cheaper than wages.

Can’t see how you could remove that. The horse has already started to bolt on that one


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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

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That's such a ridiculously sweeping statement

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Son, we live in a world that has forums, and those forums have to be guarded by Mods. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Nickman? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Lucy, and you curse GE. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know -- that GE’s moderation, while tragic, probably saved lives; and my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, keeps threads on track and under the appropriately sized, highlighted green headings.
You want moderation because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that forum -- you need me on that forum. We use words like "stay on topic," "use the appropriate forum," "please delete." We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very moderation that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather that you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you get a green handle and edit a post. Either way, I don't give a DAMN what you think about moderation.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by Green eyed Mick »

What disincentives would you advocate removing?
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The Politics Thread 2018

Post by FuiFui BradBrad »

T_R wrote:That's such a ridiculously sweeping statement

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Nah, that sort of statement would be something like “Automation is sweeping the nation”

But what GEM said, how would you disincentivise it?
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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

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T_R wrote: April 7, 2018, 12:38 pm This is comedy

You'd be much better removing disincentives to employing people.

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Oh this old chestnut.

Like what exactly? Apart from not earning enough or growing enough to justify new people, what is the disincentive to hiring?
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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by Sossman »

The Nickman wrote: March 23, 2018, 12:17 pm I disagree. The purpose for the tax reforms in all our minds here is to adequately get money from the high earners while leaving the lower income families alone. And taxing fresh fruit and vegetables or rent is going to make no difference to the high earners. I know myself, for instance, as a medium income earner absolutely don’t spend most of my money on fruit and vegetables or rent or electricity.

And if you tax these items and then subsidise the lower income earners then what’s the point? Just don’t tax basic essentials, as you’re not trying to raise money from them.
I pretty much agree with both you and GE. However GE was right that tax efficiency and certainty is imporant.

I actually support a higher GST that applies to everything. I also want to see CGT with no discounts or exemptions.

Basically tax everything and then lower the rates and tweak the bands / rates. Broaden the tax 'base' and give more power to policy makers to move the levers.

Oh and **** off all the rent seekers.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by gangrenous »

Sossman wrote:
T_R wrote: April 7, 2018, 12:38 pm This is comedy

You'd be much better removing disincentives to employing people.

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Oh this old chestnut.

Like what exactly? Apart from not earning enough or growing enough to justify new people, what is the disincentive to hiring?
Presumably payroll tax. That’s T_R’s bugbear. Which is fine. But not mutually exclusive with the discussion.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by Green eyed Mick »

There are a lot of people who expect drivers and plant operators to be automated out jobs within a decade and there are no incentives that will keep people on the roads once robots can do it faster and safer.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by greeneyed »

The economic incidence of payroll tax is borne by consumers through higher prices or employees through lower wages, in general. I can understand concerns about it, if shifting the incidence of the tax is difficult in the short term... particularly when there are changes to the way it applies and which businesses it applies to. Provided the base is kept broad, it is not a bad tax. But I understand it can be difficult for businesses if they have to adjust to coming into the payroll tax net... the adjustment costs are often ignored.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by Manbush »

Woohoo, farting on staff members isn’t workplace bullying :thumbsup


http://www.afr.com/news/policy/industri ... 409-h0yit9
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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by Schifty »

Manbush wrote: April 10, 2018, 7:32 pm Woohoo, farting on staff members isn’t workplace bullying :thumbsup


http://www.afr.com/news/policy/industri ... 409-h0yit9
Yeah and what Joel Monaghan did wasn't illegal either but it doesn't mean you should do it..
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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by Manbush »

Pfft where’s the fun in that mate
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