Michael or other lawyers rip this a new one please

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Michael or other lawyers rip this a new one please

Post by Albi » January 25, 2013, 3:24 pm

MB - I don't like the sound of this at all. You MUST make sure your name is on the birth certificate.
You want to be a part of your child's life, but if you give her all the power then she can withhold you having anything to do with him/her.
You may think that this informal arrangement will work well for you, but these situations deteriorate all the time. What happens if she finds a life partner? What custody access do you want? What part do you want to play in their life? Unless you formalise these things you're potentially screwed. Think about what would happen if she decided to up and leave.. Just because things are all rosy now doesn't mean they always will be.
Give this some more thought
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Re: Michael or other lawyers rip this a new one please

Post by Michael » January 25, 2013, 3:56 pm

I'm kinda inclined to agree with Albi - this whole plan seems ill-conceived.
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Michael or other lawyers rip this a new one please

Post by Shezza » January 25, 2013, 3:59 pm

Michael wrote:I'm kinda inclined to agree with Albi - this whole plan seems ill-conceived.
Epic pun.
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Re: Michael or other lawyers rip this a new one please

Post by Michael » January 25, 2013, 4:05 pm

Shezza wrote:
Michael wrote:I'm kinda inclined to agree with Albi - this whole plan seems ill-conceived.
Epic pun.
Thanks mate - but all jokes aside, this has bad news written all over it.
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Michael or other lawyers rip this a new one please

Post by Albi » January 25, 2013, 4:53 pm

This has heartbreak and tragedy written all over it :(
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Re: Michael or other lawyers rip this a new one please

Post by Manbush » January 25, 2013, 4:54 pm

She wants me on the birth certificate and the arrangement will be like the father of her daughter has, she makes te decisions with bringing the kid up and I can have contact and be known as dad, lol she's pretty insistent on me signing the legal forms protecting my rights. She wants me involved in the kids life as she says allowing more people to love a kid is the greatest gift you could give them.
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Michael or other lawyers rip this a new one please

Post by Albi » January 25, 2013, 4:57 pm

What if you don't agree with the decisions she makes?
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Re: Michael or other lawyers rip this a new one please

Post by Nick » January 25, 2013, 5:00 pm

Shezza wrote:
Michael wrote:I'm kinda inclined to agree with Albi - this whole plan seems ill-conceived.
Epic pun.
agreed :roflmao
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Re: Michael or other lawyers rip this a new one please

Post by Manbush » January 25, 2013, 5:10 pm

Albi wrote:What if you don't agree with the decisions she makes?
Obviously we can talk about it, but the final decision would be hers. Seeing how happy and balanced her daughter is made this decision easy for me, she will do anything to make her kid happy lol even to the point of dying her white pony pink one mornin while the daughter was asleep cause she always wanted a pink pony.

She isn't religious, I knew her family growing up, she's idealistic, has money and puts her daughter first, everything I've known about her and her family for the past 35 yrs puts me at ease with her morals and choices.

In saying that everything in life is a risk but some risks are worth it
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Re: Michael or other lawyers rip this a new one please

Post by T_R » January 25, 2013, 5:20 pm

Absolutely none of my business, and I wish you absolutely nothing but the best...but for so, so many reasons, this is the worst idea I've ever heard. Except for the shag bit. That's outstanding.

Also, I'm not at all convinced that you CAN contract away your responsibilities as far as child support is concerned. Someone - not me - who's been in a law class within the last 15 years might be able to shed light on this, but I have a feeling that this could be a very, very expensive little encounter for you. I don't recall Australian case law on this, but I am 100% sure that in the United Kingdom the courts set aside contracts of this nature. I'd be surprised if Australia was any different.

I'd speak to a lawyer.
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Son, we live in a world that has forums, and those forums have to be guarded by Mods. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Nickman? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Lucy, and you curse GE. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know -- that GE’s moderation, while tragic, probably saved lives; and my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, keeps threads on track and under the appropriately sized, highlighted green headings.
You want moderation because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that forum -- you need me on that forum. We use words like "stay on topic," "use the appropriate forum," "please delete." We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very moderation that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather that you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you get a green handle and edit a post. Either way, I don't give a DAMN what you think about moderation.

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Michael or other lawyers rip this a new one please

Post by Please » January 25, 2013, 5:23 pm

I would suggest the same thing, speak to a lawyer, ensure all parties understand each others needs and wants.
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Re: Michael or other lawyers rip this a new one please

Post by Manbush » January 25, 2013, 5:33 pm

According to her if I don't sign the contract then the government would enforce child support which is why she's really keen for me to do it. She doesn't want my money (lol not that I have any) she just wants the kid to know the dad hence her preference for me than an anonymous donor.

I have thought about everything the good and the bad since Monday, all I've been able to think about, as the last chance for me to ever have a kid its worth the risks even if I do have to pay support
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Re: Michael or other lawyers rip this a new one please

Post by T_R » January 25, 2013, 5:34 pm

Here's today's legal hypothetical:

MB knocks up woman, but she has contracted not to seek child support. Now, I sincerely doubt that a court would accept this contract, but assuming that everyone plays along in the spirit of it then MB doesn't lose half his salary each month.

But. Flushed with the joy of childbirth, she strides out of the hospital....and under a bus.

1. Who gets custody? MB would be the obvious one, but would almost certainly come under pressure from the mother's family who could establish that he has only a minimal relationship with the child and has never contributed financially to its upbringing. This is further complicated by the presence of another child from a previous relationship - courts are reluctant to split up siblings.

2. Who pays? So, custody goes to a grandparent, let's say. But the said grandparent certainly has no contract with MB in regards child support, so takes action against MB to recover the sum. But it get's worse. The mother steps under a bus when the child is 15....and MB then gets a 15 year bill for child support. And the kid likes ponies.

Very interesting.
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Son, we live in a world that has forums, and those forums have to be guarded by Mods. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Nickman? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Lucy, and you curse GE. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know -- that GE’s moderation, while tragic, probably saved lives; and my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, keeps threads on track and under the appropriately sized, highlighted green headings.
You want moderation because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that forum -- you need me on that forum. We use words like "stay on topic," "use the appropriate forum," "please delete." We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very moderation that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather that you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you get a green handle and edit a post. Either way, I don't give a DAMN what you think about moderation.

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Re: Michael or other lawyers rip this a new one please

Post by dubby » January 25, 2013, 5:39 pm

Let's talk about speeding fines.....
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Re: Michael or other lawyers rip this a new one please

Post by Dr Zaius » January 25, 2013, 5:48 pm

T_R wrote:Here's today's legal hypothetical:

MB knocks up woman, but she has contracted not to seek child support. Now, I sincerely doubt that a court would accept this contract, but assuming that everyone plays along in the spirit of it then MB doesn't lose half his salary each month.

But. Flushed with the joy of childbirth, she strides out of the hospital....and under a bus.

1. Who gets custody? MB would be the obvious one, but would almost certainly come under pressure from the mother's family who could establish that he has only a minimal relationship with the child and has never contributed financially to its upbringing. This is further complicated by the presence of another child from a previous relationship - courts are reluctant to split up siblings.

2. Who pays? So, custody goes to a grandparent, let's say. But the said grandparent certainly has no contract with MB in regards child support, so takes action against MB to recover the sum. But it get's worse. The mother steps under a bus when the child is 15....and MB then gets a 15 year bill for child support. And the kid likes ponies.

Very interesting.
And pink ponies at that. Which are very rare and must therefoire be very expensive.
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Re: Michael or other lawyers rip this a new one please

Post by T_R » January 25, 2013, 6:00 pm

dubby wrote:Let's talk about speeding fines.....
I take the points when I get pulled over, I farm them out when it's a speed camera.*

*Ha! Not really! That's illegal! This is clearly just satire, and thus protected!
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Son, we live in a world that has forums, and those forums have to be guarded by Mods. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Nickman? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Lucy, and you curse GE. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know -- that GE’s moderation, while tragic, probably saved lives; and my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, keeps threads on track and under the appropriately sized, highlighted green headings.
You want moderation because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that forum -- you need me on that forum. We use words like "stay on topic," "use the appropriate forum," "please delete." We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very moderation that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather that you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you get a green handle and edit a post. Either way, I don't give a DAMN what you think about moderation.

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Re: Michael or other lawyers rip this a new one please

Post by Manbush » January 25, 2013, 7:04 pm

Question for TR and Albi since I know you're both older gents like myself but who are lucky enough to have kids that I bet you both cherish more than life itself, if you were me, 7months away from turning 40, no kids and no prospects of having any would you take the risk with someone you trust who earns double what you do or would you just give away what's probably your only chance at having something you've always wanted? Isn't it worth the risk?
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Re: Michael or other lawyers rip this a new one please

Post by T_R » January 25, 2013, 7:15 pm

Honestly? No, for me I would not do this.

I understand your reasoning, but I just would not do it.

If you choose to, I wish you nothing but the best, but I reckon you're sitting on just about the biggest can or worms ever here.

I don't buy the whole 'last chance' thing, either. I know lots of people having kids in their 40s, and I know that life can change frighteningly quickly, and when you least expect it.
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Son, we live in a world that has forums, and those forums have to be guarded by Mods. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Nickman? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Lucy, and you curse GE. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know -- that GE’s moderation, while tragic, probably saved lives; and my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, keeps threads on track and under the appropriately sized, highlighted green headings.
You want moderation because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that forum -- you need me on that forum. We use words like "stay on topic," "use the appropriate forum," "please delete." We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very moderation that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather that you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you get a green handle and edit a post. Either way, I don't give a DAMN what you think about moderation.

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Michael or other lawyers rip this a new one please

Post by Please » January 25, 2013, 7:19 pm

But life is so unexpected, you don't want to take a risk as to whether it won't happen?
Well, at least Jack got paid.

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Re: Michael or other lawyers rip this a new one please

Post by T_R » January 25, 2013, 7:25 pm

Nope.

I think being a non-custodial parent would be very difficult at the best of times. I think deliberately choosing that as a lifestyle option is something I would not consider.

But that's me - MB clearly has a different view and I wish him all the best.
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Son, we live in a world that has forums, and those forums have to be guarded by Mods. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Nickman? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Lucy, and you curse GE. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know -- that GE’s moderation, while tragic, probably saved lives; and my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, keeps threads on track and under the appropriately sized, highlighted green headings.
You want moderation because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that forum -- you need me on that forum. We use words like "stay on topic," "use the appropriate forum," "please delete." We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very moderation that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather that you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you get a green handle and edit a post. Either way, I don't give a DAMN what you think about moderation.

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Re: Michael or other lawyers rip this a new one please

Post by Nick » January 25, 2013, 7:48 pm

Im with Albi, TR and Michael for what its worth
This is not an arrangement i would touch with a 10 foot clown pole, i can only see a horror show ending

but as TR said, thats me. MB should do what he wants to, he knows this girl and the situation better than we do. If he's comfortable with it and wants a kid under these arrangements, then thats what he should do. Ive never known anyone who has regretted having kids so if your keen MB, good luck and i hope it all goes well (not to say they dont exist, im sure Albi has met a few)
Last edited by Nick on January 25, 2013, 7:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Michael or other lawyers rip this a new one please

Post by greeneyed » January 25, 2013, 7:52 pm

Manbush... I wish you the best, with whatever decision you take. But I would recommend you follow one suggestion from TR, and that's to get independent legal advice.
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Re: Michael or other lawyers rip this a new one please

Post by Manbush » January 25, 2013, 8:36 pm

T_R wrote:Nope.

I think being a non-custodial parent would be very difficult at the best of times. I think deliberately choosing that as a lifestyle option is something I would not consider.

But that's me - MB clearly has a different view and I wish him all the best.
Not the preferred option by any means but 99% chance it's the only way I'll have one, will be bloody hard and I acknowledge that but the times together will make it the better option than never having one, better for the kid to also have a dad that knows he loves them than having none, if not me it's an anonymous donor.
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Re: Michael or other lawyers rip this a new one please

Post by Michael » January 25, 2013, 9:26 pm

I'm almost certain you can't opt out of child support based on a verbal 'contract' or agreement. Like, I understand that the agreement is made in good faith and intentions etc, but my limited experience in family law has taught me that everyone enters into relationships with the best of intentions, and yet they still go belly-up with alarming regularity. Suffice to say, if your baby-mama sought child support, and you tried to claim that you were basically a breathing machine for your genitals and that you otherwise had no real stake in the matter, the Federal Magistrate would not buy what you're selling.
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Re: Michael or other lawyers rip this a new one please

Post by Schifty » January 25, 2013, 9:33 pm

I only just had a real read of this thread now :shock:

Anyway the most important thing here is..

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Michael or other lawyers rip this a new one please

Post by Albi » January 25, 2013, 10:07 pm

MB.. An honest answer to your question is no.

Though I'm clearly a radical lefty communist :p I have elements of social conservatism, insofar as, I think - actually I know - children thrive best when they have a mum and dad that play prominent roles in their lives... Of course the definition of a family has changed, and mums and dads aren't always together; but the scenario you describe, MB, has far too many variables.

I would never do what you describe, but then again, my children are almost adults!!!

Good luck with whatever you decide
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Re: Michael or other lawyers rip this a new one please

Post by Manbush » January 25, 2013, 11:14 pm

Cheers for the different perspectives, after thinking about it constantly for 5 days there hasn't been a possibility that hasn't gone through my mind

Albi if looking at it as to what's best for the kid she's having it with or without me anyway, wouldn't a dad of this kind be better than none for the child?

When we first began discussing it the fear of me possibly going for joint custody was a huge issue for her and would be a major deterrent against going for child support, I have no criminal record or reason for a judge not to grant it and with the disparity in income I'd likely be the beneficiary of any child support if joint custody was granted. as I told her though if she fell on hard times she wouldn't need to go for it I'd offer it willingly

There's risks and variables in every facet of our lives sometimes just need to take the risks after weighing up those variables, for mine it's worth it for myself, helping a friend and giving the child a dad.

Lol all this is still dependent on my swimmers being up to the task after years of abuse :opps
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Re: Michael or other lawyers rip this a new one please

Post by greeneyed » January 25, 2013, 11:18 pm

Manbush. Whatever you do, get independent legal advice.
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Re: Michael or other lawyers rip this a new one please

Post by Michael » January 25, 2013, 11:53 pm

greeneyed wrote:Manbush. Whatever you do, get independent legal advice.
This really can't be stressed enough. Going into this without at least speaking to a lawyer is absolute madness.
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Re: Michael or other lawyers rip this a new one please

Post by Dr Zaius » January 26, 2013, 9:09 am

I had a similar proposition casually put to me last year. I pretended I didn't hear it. Anyone who wants my sperm probably shouldn't be breeding.
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Re: Michael or other lawyers rip this a new one please

Post by Riaan » January 27, 2013, 3:57 pm

MB this arrangement with this woman is incredibly stupid to be perfectly honest.
Once your child is born you will want to see it everyday and being 2 hours away from him her is going to be incredibly difficult for you add into the fact that this woman is giving you NO say in how the child will be raised means this will just end in heartache for you. Let this one go through to the keeper bro.

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Re: Michael or other lawyers rip this a new one please

Post by Manbush » January 27, 2013, 5:45 pm

Thanks for perspectives and advice guys they are appreciated, but I've been weighing it up all week and the positives outweigh any possible negatives no matter how messy it could get for mine, it helps knowing her and her families morals and ethics, I know the kid will be raised in a warm loving household and brought up very well. I'm under no illusions how hard it will be with the distance and who knows that distance might not always be there (yes a slight possibility it could get greater but it's in our home town where her and her family grew up, have property etc so highly unlikely).

What's the point of life if you don't take risks, I'm hoping for the best but am also prepared for the worst, who knows what the future will bring.
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Michael or other lawyers rip this a new one please

Post by Please » January 27, 2013, 5:49 pm

Mate I wish you all the best. I can't condemn you in the slightest because a large amount of people in the same boat would do the same thing.

This option is way more preferable then living with regret when you do get older.

I would seriously laugh however if this is one big lie and you just want the thread of the year ;)
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Re: Michael or other lawyers rip this a new one please

Post by gergreg » January 27, 2013, 6:03 pm

Men do have children well into their 40's. There is still plenty of time for you to find a partner and have a child. Don't think that is impossible.

Good luck with your decision.
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Re: Michael or other lawyers rip this a new one please

Post by greeneyed » January 27, 2013, 7:50 pm

Manbush wrote:Thanks for perspectives and advice guys they are appreciated, but I've been weighing it up all week and the positives outweigh any possible negatives no matter how messy it could get for mine, it helps knowing her and her families morals and ethics, I know the kid will be raised in a warm loving household and brought up very well. I'm under no illusions how hard it will be with the distance and who knows that distance might not always be there (yes a slight possibility it could get greater but it's in our home town where her and her family grew up, have property etc so highly unlikely).

What's the point of life if you don't take risks, I'm hoping for the best but am also prepared for the worst, who knows what the future will bring.
Manbush. You know I'm going to say this with your interests at heart. I want you to experience whatever you want, in terms of having children, etc. But I really want to hear one thing. You've sought INDEPENDENT legal advice. Please do it.
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